Hi. My name is Kathryn Jones, Head of Inclusion here at Aster, and I'm joined by my colleague, Maria Mendoza, Diversity and Inclusion Partner. We're delighted to be talking to Emma O'Shea, Chief Operating and Technology Officer, and Darren Brazil, Regional Operations Director and Chair of our LGBTQ+ Colleague Network. We're here today as part of the LGBTQ+ housing pledge to discuss inclusivity in this space. The pledge is an initiative by House Proud and is delivered by Stonewall Housing. The scheme asks housing associations to demonstrate their commitment to LGBTQ+ equality and support. House Proud was set up in two thousand and fourteen as the network group for LGBTQ+ people working in social housing, and Stonewall Housing was founded in nineteen eighty three and provides specialist housing advice, advocacy, and support for LGBTQ+ people who are either homeless or at risk of homelessness, something there's a clear need for as demonstrated in their recent impact report. So now I'll hand over to Maria to get the conversation going. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us, Emma and Darren. We'll kick things off by firstly asking you, how important is the LGBTQ+ inclusion to us as an organisation and within this sector? Thanks, Maria. That's a really great question to get us started with. So first of all, to say how excited I am to be on the podcast talking about this really interesting subject. For me as an organisation and for a business that impacts on so many people's lives, I think it's really, really important that we really raise the agenda, really elevate the conversation, not only for our customers, but also for our colleagues as well. We're a people business, actually, and the work that we do every day really touches the lives of so many, you know, hundreds of thousands of customers every day, a workforce of over two thousand people. And I think that's why it's really important as an organisation that we continue to have these important conversations about why it's important. When you think about it, the work that we do in our customers' homes every day, there's hundreds and thousands of transactions that we have with our customers every year. It really impacts on our customers' daily lives. When you think about your own house and you think about what your house kind of represents to you, I think that's why it's really, really important that we take the way in which we deliver services really importantly and, of course, making sure that the way we deliver services really meets the diverse needs of our customers as well. Home for me, I don't know about you, but it's my safe haven. It's the place where I feel safe and secure. So from being from an LGBT community, we have an obligation and a right to make sure the way in which we deliver services makes our customers feel really safe in the way that we do that. I've read some really interesting, research from Stonewall and House Proud about the way in which customers perhaps adapt to people visiting their homes, perhaps how they hide some of their identity to kind of cover up some of the fact that they're part of the community. And actually, that just makes me feel really sad that people would feel in this day and age that they would need to do that. So I think that's why it's really important that as a landlord that goes into people's homes every day, that we really take that really seriously, that obligation to make sure that we're really inclusive, the language that we use, the way we deliver services. So I think fundamentally as a service provider, I think it's absolutely critical that we continue to have this conversation. And, of course, across our two thousand employees as well, making sure that our workspaces, feel safe for people, that they can bring their true kind of authentic self to work as well is a really important part of that jigsaw of diversity and and inclusion. Darren, don't know what your thoughts are. Yeah. Thanks, Emma. Yeah. I agree with with all of what you said there. It is about what we do being so fundamental to the health and well-being and opportunities for customers that live in our homes. It is the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarchy of need, that safe and secure space. And anything that we can do to make sure that we promote that amongst colleagues and customers for their well-being, their sense of security and safety around knowing that their landlord or that their housing association, that they're in a shared ownership arrangement with or a leasehold arrangement with, whatever their demographic, that we will respect that. I think for me, for the sector, it's fundamentally about acknowledging and celebrating difference and also understanding and challenging the narratives that are sometimes emerging in the world at the moment that people like, who identify as LGBTQ+ are in some way special. It's not about being special. It's about being different. And when there's something a little bit different about you, if the world is not entirely geared up to just acknowledging that and not impinging on it and, and not affecting you negatively, then surely that's where we would want to be. I would hope. I'm sure that colleagues around the business will feel exactly as Emma said that they're able to bring their whole selves to work. And we know that, you know, lots of different people from different backgrounds with different ideas absolutely contribute to the success of an organization. It's how we get away from group think. It's how we get away from confirmation bias. It's how we get away from, all of the things that might impinge either intentionally or not on the way we deliver services and the way our colleagues experience working here at Aster. So I think it's incredibly important that we're not only alive to it, but that we acknowledge that the difference doesn't make you special. But it does mean that, actually, you might need to think there might be another couple of steps in the thinking about the way you deliver messages or the way you deliver services for people. Perfect. Thank you, Darren. Sticking with you, Darren, and then we'll come to you, Emma, what drives your interest in LGBTQ+ inclusion? So I'm fascinated with how far we've come in such a relatively short space of time. I grew up in a world where there were things such as the section twenty eight local government act that meant that despite being a victim of homosexual bullying in school, not only was it not dealt with, but there was no acknowledgment whatsoever of that. I was kids. I was I wasn't out. I wasn't, you know, openly talking to people about my preferences, but I was a victim of homophobic abuse throughout my school life. And that's that affected me. That had an impact on me. It meant that I was exposed to things that shouldn't have been exposed to and that I wasn't protected by the school, by teachers. That their job was to be in loco parentis. And through no fault of their own, they weren't in a position to be able to intervene and stop that happening to me Mhmm. Because they weren't allowed to even acknowledge that that's what was happening. The legislation very specifically said you shall not intentionally promote homosexuality as if the promotion of homosexuality is an actual thing, as if somebody's gonna pop you a leaflet through on the off chance that you might sign up. Yeah? That was the world we lived in. That was the world we lived in, and it was only repealed twenty plus, twenty or so years ago. So for me, how far we've come is hugely, important to me. But knowing that there's still further for us to go is also important. Knowing that we're in a place at the moment where there is a rise in hate crime against all minority groups, invisible or not, knowing where we are in the narrative around trans issues, knowing where we are in the arguments that are put forward by certain groups geopolitically that, you know, we've gone too far. And I'll take us back to the point I made in the beginning about not being special, but being different. And, actually, that's something to be celebrated and explored and understood. I'm hugely hopeful for the future, and that keeps me motivated to have these conversations. I don't want people to experience some of the things that I did in my youth and occasionally through my adulthood. And I do want us to have a a world where if I link to the Ipsos survey that was conducted in twenty twenty four, there's some amazing statistics in there. So Ipsos conducted a survey of twenty six countries in twenty twenty four, and of Gen zed, Gen zeders, or Gen z, whichever part of the Atlantic you're on, seventeen percent, of those surveyed across those twenty six countries in Gen Z, Gen Zed, identified as LGBTQ+. Now that's a staggering leap over the course of two generations from gen from my generation, Gen X, where it was six percent, to millennials where it was slightly higher, and then to Gen Zed. Now I don't believe for a minute all of those seventeen percent of Gen Zeders across the twenty six countries have had a leaflet through, so they've signed up. Yeah? It's not like there's a massive explosion of LGBT+ people across the world. What that tells us is that the world has changed significantly. There's still more to do, but I'm hugely hopeful about the confidence that that generation has about being confident to identify as who they are. The other the other final element that I'll mention is we as a business and as a sector need to acknowledge that that's where the world is. We are employing gen zeders. We are employing groups of people who have very different expectations about how they go about their lives, their work lives, and their home lives, and we have to be responsive to that. And it's especially incumbent, I think, on people in leadership roles who might be, you know, the wrong side of Gen x, who might be geriatric millennials to actually think about that and actually promote and create an atmosphere of inclusion where that diversity is acknowledged, celebrated, and that difference is borne out in the decisions that are made. Yeah. Thanks, Darren. Emma? Yes. Thanks, Darren. It's really helpful, I guess. And and that sort of future planning gen zed bit is is really important, isn't it? Because when you think about our future customers, when you think about our future workforce and being able to plan for that, you know, for me, from a work and a professional perspective, that's where my real passion comes in, actually, is the ability to be able to listen to our customers and colleagues and adapt the way that we deliver services to to kind of meet needs, adapt our workplaces to ensure that workplaces are comfortable for people to bring their authentic self is is absolutely important. So I think it's about future proofing, I think, and that sort of passion, Darren, about future proofing is really important. I guess for me, though, on a personal level, my passion really comes, you know, being a woman with my two young boys, Oscar and and Oliver. I guess I feel a sort of real personal agenda, around this and making sure that we raise the conversation, raise the awareness, raise the understanding, and quite bluntly, raise the acceptance around difference, I think, is really important for me. I think, you know, Darren, you touched on it that it isn't about being special, but it's about acknowledging differences and the differences in the way that we live our lives now. It's becoming hugely diverse in a range of different social topics. I think making sure that people have the comfort and being able to deal with that, I think is really important. And particularly for me with with two young children as well, being able to create a world where their acceptance about their life, their family is understood and people are comfortable with that is really important. I'm really fortunate actually, I've had quite a limited amount of discrimination in my life and I'm very, very, very happy about that. But I know that's not the case for everyone. So I think it's really important that we keep the conversation going and conversation about celebrating differences going to make sure that that comfort for everyone, including my children, is firmly there. I want to create a real legacy where we raise that agenda, we raise that profile, and that we really can make sure that there's that real acceptance of the way in which people live their lives. I think that's really important. So I think that's where my passion really comes from, I guess, Kathryn. Thank you. That's great. Yeah. Thank you both, Emma and Darren, for sharing. You're both very passionate, and it's just really great to hear. I guess we would just like to ask you I'll go with you, Anna, first, if that's okay. Do you believe there's more this sector can do to help provide safe housing and community for LGBTQ+ people? Yeah. Thanks, Maria. It's really interesting. So I've been in sector now for coming up to about fifteen years actually. Ensuring safe, secure homes is kind of what we do fundamentally. But going back to the point about LGBTQ+ community specifically, we know that kind of one in five people in that community likely to experience homelessness at some stage in their life. So that the likelihood of having a higher proportion of that demographic within our customer base is really high. And so I think for me, the sector acknowledging that and making sure that we take our role and responsibility around that really seriously is important, particularly when you look at things like community safety. The seriousness of how we tackle community safety issues, hate crime, for example. And I think the sector has come a long way in the fifteen years that I've been in sector, but I always think that there's more that we could be doing in this space. I hear on a daily basis the work that our antisocial behaviour team do, for example, in community safety, some cases around particular hate crimes in areas. What I m always really proud of is the work that we do to take our responsibility really seriously there, to have a zero tolerance approach. And I think there s more that the sector could be doing in that space to make sure that we re really working with our partners, really taking those situations really seriously. And I'm really proud that we've signed up to the House Proud Pledge. I think that's really starting setting our foot forward on this journey. Actually, I think there's more the sector could be doing in that space. When I look at the number of people that have signed up, I think there's more organisations that need to make it more top of their agenda as part of their diversity and inclusion work. And actually, I'm really looking forward to kind of working with House Prowl to really promote that work that we do. But when I think since we've signed up, if I think about the work that we've done in that space, it's been incredibly impactful. The network that we've got going, which is a fantastic opportunity of colleagues to come together celebrating those difference, the work we're doing around training and diversity and inclusion, leadership in this space, changing impact assessment, talking to customers in a different way. I think that for me, I think that's where the sector really needs to get on board. It's not just about these one or two tokenistic things that we are doing, it's a whole suite of things. I think that's the work that we've done through the pledge itself. I think the sector could step forward in that space a little bit more to make sure it's a really firm commitment for their organisations. Yeah. That sort of whole holistic approach is really important, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Emma. I think for me as well, one of the one of the most striking things, certainly from my past experience in the police and and working in antisocial behavior, is that we're dealing with a a demographic of people who are disproportionately affected by things like familial abuse and disproportionately unsupported in things such as domestic abuse. Some time ago, I read a really troubling statistic about the likelihood of a female victim of domestic abuse reaching out to the police or, the number of incidents before that would happen for a a woman in a mixed, gender relationship was around about thirty three. The same scenario for a same sex a male, same sex couple, for example, there would be, on average, ninety three to ninety six incidents before that victim of domestic abuse would reach out to the police for intervention. Right now, thirty odd is unacceptable. When you get up into the nineties and possibly not at all in terms of same sex victims of domestic abuse reaching out to the authorities, that's really troubling. And it's born out in the statistics of Stonewall Housing and their impact report and the support that they deliver to LGBTQ+ people, suffering, as a result of of homelessness or stress on familial or domestic relationship. But around about a third of all recorded cases included instances of abuse. So I think, you know, that speaks volumes about some of the and it may be historic attitudes. And, you know, I'll hark back to my point about how the world has changed and how things have improved and attitudes have improved and the response of of statutory organizations has improved over the years. But if I think if you probably looked at that same demographic that are prepared to identify as LGBTQ+, you would find as you go up through the generations, you would probably find some, latent attitudes about engaging with statutory authorities to get the support and intervention that they might otherwise miss out on. And I think there's more for us to do in that space. There's more for us to do in terms of potentially being a bridge to statutory authorities. Particularly, I'm thinking about, the older generations of LGBTQ+ people who may still have that fear of judgment, that fear of being mistreated at the hands of of people in positions of authority. And we're not in a position of authority, typically speaking, and we can make ourselves more accessible to customers who are in that situation. I think there is more for us to do, there, in terms of identifying that we can offer support in the same way to victims of same sex domestic abuse as other groups of customers and that we're proud about the work that we do with Daha and, our accreditation there. And I think there's definitely more for the sector to do to just examine some of the reasons for homelessness and why LGBTQ+ young people are disproportionately represented in homeless statistics. Yeah. Thank you, Darren. Some really, shocking and stark stats in amongst there, so thank you for that. So final question to you both, and we'll come back to you, Emma. For those listening, what do you think one small action could be sort of after listening to this that people could do to maybe help support colleagues and customers that are in the LGBTQ+ community? Yeah. I guess it's possibly not one specific action per se, Kathryn. It's more about a sort of principle to kind of think about. And I guess I would encourage everyone to think a bit more curiously about the subject and actually how perhaps, you know, look around you, look at the people that you spend your time with, you know, how diverse are the people that you spend your time with on a broad spectrum of kind of thinking and thoughts and ideas. And for me, surround yourself with people who have different perspectives on things is actually just quite a fulfilling way of living life and being curious about different the differences. So I mean, it was one thing is, you know, just to be more curious. I said as a preamble when we were having this conversation before the podcast, my life to me is very normal. The way I live my life is very normal and I recognise to some people that it isn't. And actually I take absolutely no offence in people being curious about that actually. So I think it's just really important that we just have that curiosity, and, actually, that that in itself makes people feel very included and very accepted rather than as perhaps shying away from some of those those conversations as well. So so, yeah, curiosity, I think, would be the action or the principle to live by. Thank you. Darren? Yeah. Thanks, Emma. A hundred percent agree. There's no such there's no adage, isn't it? There's no such thing as a stupid question. And, actually, we're all just people living our lives. And because of human nature, I think it's reasonable to say that nobody will be offended by you taking an active interest in them. It's you're never gonna cause offence by being actively interested in how people are and and how they're going on and how they're living their lives. So, yeah, a hundred percent support what what Emma would say. I would also say, please feel free to pop along even if it's just the once to join the conversation in our LGBTQ+ network meetings. I'm sure we'll put some contacts in attached to the post of this podcast, or you can email me. You can email Kathryn, Maria, Emma. I'm sure you are more than welcome to join. I'll go back to what I said at the very start. It's not about being special, but it is about being slightly different. And the only way we join the dots on our differences is when we spend time in each other's company. And there is a ready made forum for you to just swing by, listen to what gets discussed, listen to, the issues that we raise and talk about in complete safety and comfort. You don't need to be ticking any boxes in any list about participating in joining the conversation because it's not special, but it is important. Lovely words to end on. Thanks, Darren, and thanks for the plug as well for the network. Thank you both so much for your time. It's been so insightful, and you're both very passionate people, which is gonna inspire so many people listening to this podcast, I'm sure. Thank you, though, for your time. If any listeners would like to discuss any elements of the LGBTQ+ inclusion, as Darrenstated, please feel free to get in touch with myself or Catherine or Emma or Darren. And we'd also be really happy to share more information about our LGBTQ+ network. Thank you for listening. Thank you, everyone.